Comments on: ‘Analytical Rumination’:Depression as an Adaptive Response? http://www.mindofmodernity.com/analytical-ruminationdepression-as-an-adaptive-response Exploring modern culture and its effects on the mind Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:08:36 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: David http://www.mindofmodernity.com/analytical-ruminationdepression-as-an-adaptive-response/comment-page-1#comment-64 David Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:32:02 +0000 http://www.mindofmodernity.com/?p=327#comment-64 Michael You said: <em>Is “analytical rumination” a response to symbolic stimuli that the brain has trouble analyzing, stimuli that both shapes and is shaped by contextualities? Because if the authors were to accept this, then they would also be implicitly accepting the role of cultural factors in what we call depression and depression would not simply serve a base evolutionary function, but something far more complicated.</em> This is exactly what I was suggesting when I said their argument implies that problems in the cultural environment affect the functioning of the brain. There is no way to understand "environmental stressors," "complex problems," or "social dilemmas" apart from culture - the realm of the symbolic. Our social interactions cannot be reduced to a struggle to reproduce and eat- they are colored with a thousand overlapping shades of meaning which exist in our minds and the minds of others. This is why they are complex. If depression (which they say leads to changes in body and brain function which facilitate 'analytical rumination') is a response to complex problems, then it is, in effect, a response to culture. Michael

You said:

Is “analytical rumination” a response to symbolic stimuli that the brain has trouble analyzing, stimuli that both shapes and is shaped by contextualities? Because if the authors were to accept this, then they would also be implicitly accepting the role of cultural factors in what we call depression and depression would not simply serve a base evolutionary function, but something far more complicated.

This is exactly what I was suggesting when I said their argument implies that problems in the cultural environment affect the functioning of the brain. There is no way to understand “environmental stressors,” “complex problems,” or “social dilemmas” apart from culture – the realm of the symbolic. Our social interactions cannot be reduced to a struggle to reproduce and eat- they are colored with a thousand overlapping shades of meaning which exist in our minds and the minds of others. This is why they are complex. If depression (which they say leads to changes in body and brain function which facilitate ‘analytical rumination’) is a response to complex problems, then it is, in effect, a response to culture.

]]> By: Michael Lo Stracco http://www.mindofmodernity.com/analytical-ruminationdepression-as-an-adaptive-response/comment-page-1#comment-63 Michael Lo Stracco Wed, 03 Mar 2010 14:36:09 +0000 http://www.mindofmodernity.com/?p=327#comment-63 Dave, You provide an excellent analysis and counter-argument to the ideas of Andrews and Thompson. Throughout my reading of this post, one question kept scratching away: have these authors ever experienced depression and what good is this rumination (their study) for those who suffer from it today? I may concur with the idea that emotional pain can be an authentic impetus for personal growth through self-reflective insight, an impetus that has the ability to both strengthen one’s will and resolve, but in my experience this rumination is often endlessly circular and without an external cultural force to help focus and guide it, potentially self-destructive. The author’s do not seem to consider this self-destructive element, which is decidedly counter-evolutionary. I appreciate how you seek to clarify just what Culture’s role, specifically modern Culture’s role, plays in the formation, diagnosis and treatment of depression. To this point I would say that I am surprised that no biochemical evidence was included in their study, because it seems obvious to me that “depression” is a modern cultural formation, with its own requisite set of signifying language and symbols and emotions attached, but any argument for or from evolution should include actual biochemical data, no? This is not to say that I think depression is a modern phenomenon, relegated only to a specific historical location; on the contrary, I agree that depression as we know it or something like must have existed in our ancestral past. Today, we are left with the questions of why this is/was and how do cultural contexts influence our definition of “depression” and the symptomatic expressions we experience. Two other questions I was left with: Is “analytical rumination” a response to symbolic stimuli that the brain has trouble analyzing, stimuli that both shapes and is shaped by contextualities? Because if the authors were to accept this, then they would also be implicitly accepting the role of cultural factors in what we call depression and depression would not simply serve a base evolutionary function, but something far more complicated. And, doesn’t symbolic culture both spurn and respond to evolution? The overwhelming neurological evidence today suggests that the brain’s own plasticity- its ability to respond to effort, experience and environment, including shear thought power- seems to suggest that both assumptions are correct. Dave,
You provide an excellent analysis and counter-argument to the ideas of Andrews and Thompson.
Throughout my reading of this post, one question kept scratching away: have these authors ever experienced depression and what good is this rumination (their study) for those who suffer from it today? I may concur with the idea that emotional pain can be an authentic impetus for personal growth through self-reflective insight, an impetus that has the ability to both strengthen one’s will and resolve, but in my experience this rumination is often endlessly circular and without an external cultural force to help focus and guide it, potentially self-destructive. The author’s do not seem to consider this self-destructive element, which is decidedly counter-evolutionary.
I appreciate how you seek to clarify just what Culture’s role, specifically modern Culture’s role, plays in the formation, diagnosis and treatment of depression. To this point I would say that I am surprised that no biochemical evidence was included in their study, because it seems obvious to me that “depression” is a modern cultural formation, with its own requisite set of signifying language and symbols and emotions attached, but any argument for or from evolution should include actual biochemical data, no? This is not to say that I think depression is a modern phenomenon, relegated only to a specific historical location; on the contrary, I agree that depression as we know it or something like must have existed in our ancestral past. Today, we are left with the questions of why this is/was and how do cultural contexts influence our definition of “depression” and the symptomatic expressions we experience.
Two other questions I was left with:
Is “analytical rumination” a response to symbolic stimuli that the brain has trouble analyzing, stimuli that both shapes and is shaped by contextualities? Because if the authors were to accept this, then they would also be implicitly accepting the role of cultural factors in what we call depression and depression would not simply serve a base evolutionary function, but something far more complicated.
And, doesn’t symbolic culture both spurn and respond to evolution? The overwhelming neurological evidence today suggests that the brain’s own plasticity- its ability to respond to effort, experience and environment, including shear thought power- seems to suggest that both assumptions are correct.

]]> By: Sister Wolf http://www.mindofmodernity.com/analytical-ruminationdepression-as-an-adaptive-response/comment-page-1#comment-61 Sister Wolf Wed, 03 Mar 2010 09:09:22 +0000 http://www.mindofmodernity.com/?p=327#comment-61 Thank you for your timely and insightful response to the article about depression's "upside." I actually read the article in the waiting room while my autistic teenager had an appointment with his psychiatrist. Given the recent widely reported suicides of Alexander McQueen and two young with celebrity parents, it seems particularly absurd to look at depression as adaptive or useful. I am continually baffled by attempts to view depression in a romantic light, or to diminish its serious consequences, by discussing it as anything other than a mental illness. Confusing depression with grief or situational sadness is not constructive at all. It's like comparing myopia to blindness. More time should be spent figuring out how to recognize suicidal behavior, and how to reach out to those at risk of acting on suicidal ideation. Thank you for your timely and insightful response to the article about depression’s “upside.” I actually read the article in the waiting room while my autistic teenager had an appointment with his psychiatrist.

Given the recent widely reported suicides of Alexander McQueen and two young with celebrity parents, it seems particularly absurd to look at depression as adaptive or useful.

I am continually baffled by attempts to view depression in a romantic light, or to diminish its serious consequences, by discussing it as anything other than a mental illness.

Confusing depression with grief or situational sadness is not constructive at all. It’s like comparing myopia to blindness.

More time should be spent figuring out how to recognize suicidal behavior, and how to reach out to those at risk of acting on suicidal ideation.

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